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- Vote for Answers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzC3QI8JenU http://fb.me/CTMefNDb 2010-08-04
- @boscoJC thanks for your recommendation. in reply to boscoJC 2010-08-04
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Thanks for writing this, D. I almost fell off my chair. It’s not hat I’m completely ignorant of this, but I read i while simultaneously watching CNN when they “talked” about Gaza. It saddens me that most people, thanks to mainstream “news” will never go as deep in their understanding of any political situations – here, or abroad. If you really think about it, the mainstream news is well on it’s way to put humanity back into the Stone Age, and there won’t be much of a difference between those living in mud-huts in the Middle East, and those living in houses in the West. I will forward this, asap.
I think that it is humorous that we generally consider ourselves more advanced than the ancient culters today. It would seem to me that the more things change the more they stay the same. The Bible depicts stonings at that time, and they continue today.
Clearly we have used violence for thousands of years to resolve grievances and clearly it does not work. I am amazed by the site of “Holy Men” mocking and ridiculing an overweight man. It’s like watching children acting out.
The definition of “crazy” in the dictionary is a repeated action that serves no purpose and resolves no issue. Clearly what is going on on both sides is crazy. If it didn’t work 5000 years ago, It’s not going to work now. Rational and intelligent people would observe and acknowledge this, and then try something new.
It is like putting the scientific method into practice. Develop a hypothesis, test it, and see if the desired result is achieved and then try again to to see if the results are consistent. We’ve been testing the method of violence for 1000′s of years and have found the same results each time yet we keep trying to jam a square peg into a round hole over and over like a bunch of retards!
great job. here is my angle on this:
1. the same small piece of land (“holy land”) is regarded by the 2 people as *their* homeland.
this contradictory situation does NOT mean that one of them is wrong.
historicly both are right and this is what makes the situation tragic!
2. one of these sides – the israeli, is much stronger than the other.
it also receives almost unlimited support from the US, financial, political, etc.
3. in “political reality” the strong side almost NEVER yields to arguments from the weak.
so, POWER is the name of the game. therefore israel thinks it can ALLOW the conflict to go unresolved.
people in israel DO NOT have the same daily hardship endured by palestinians.
4. yes, if the situation was reversed the palestinians MIGHT have done exactly the same to the israelis.
5. if we understand the symmetry in my point above (1), it is easy to see why an atitude that comes from
a power-based politics is not the right way to solve the problem. The palestinians dont want favours from
the strong side as they see the lad as theirs in the first place.
Israel together with the US are looking to FORCE a desireable outcome and arec waiting for the “right”
palestinian leader who will finall accept their conditions.
6. so far no such palestinian leader was found.
7. israel and the US will continue to “replace” palestinian leadership until a “suitable” is found.
israel will also try to come to any negotiations from a position of power.
they may think that obama will push for some negotiations so a forceful military action gives them that.
8. In the meantime will see more and more violence and radicallisation of muslims.
this plays into the hands of israelis who say: “but look at those terrorist…”
9. Possible solution? The more realistic is the ’2 state solution’. The ‘One state to all’ (anti-zionist) may come
at a later stage.
10. over to Obama…
“An eye for an eye leaves the entire world blind.”
- Ghandi.
I am sickened and ashamed. Ashamed that I am a part of this human experience. Ashamed that I feel the rage inside me that I feel when I watch these videos. I admit it. I must consciously remind myself that hatred and violence is not the way as I watch these videos! Would I be strong enough to resist if I were there at the moment of occurance?
are the Zionist and the G8 going to be exempt from the microchip, I think we can all be saved if we find out where they live and pay them a visit when with a flame trower while they are in their sleep
I loved what you wrote
I still didn’t finish it because I have other things to take care of, however, I must point out a few things in your article that need re-checking
The part where you said arranged marriage is in Arabic countries but then excluded Palestine. Lots of countries are to be excluded then. Perhaps you should fly over to bahrain one day and see how the people really are.
Let it be clear that female circumcision is Culture not religion, lots of Arab organizations are against the concept, its is still practiced in rural lesser educated areas.
“infidels are to be slaughtered if not converted” That is simply not true
Islam asks to respect differences in religion and does not condemn people who are not Muslim to death
parts mentioned about fighting in the Koran refer to ‘fighting back’, defending the people, and declaring our strength to those who threaten our people (Not by harming them unless they harm us). There are also strict rules when it comes to war, as written. No burning plant life, no fighting people who are escaping the fight (turning their backs on the war), no harming old citizens, women or children.
Acts done by people that include harming innocent ppl does not represent Islam or Muslims, it simply represents humans who lack conscious or have too much anger to think ‘fairly’.
anyway i might comment again later I’m in a hurry
again I remind you, I enjoyed reading this, and look forward to continuing it
btw, i dont deny arranged marriages being there, but the ones where women have no right to say yes or no are not common (not everywhere although there are very extremist families and areas that do these things, also marrying off little girls, on the alledged claim that the prophet, a man over 40 married a 9 year old, which again is not true even if many soarces say so, by the time of her engagment to him she was past 16 or 17, and wen they wed she was most likley past 18 or 19. To condemn him ppl will hav to condemn all mariages in the world that have a big age gap, but this marriage was nothing related to pedophilia, and it was common to marry very young women over a thousand years ago, ps: it was a marriage with consent.)
Also, that falls under culture not religion, islam states that a marriage without the consent of the bride does not count as marriage, and goes against the womans rights in islam.
The author of this article has done a good job of describing the Middle East conflict and its complex history, and of pointing out the wrongdoing on all sides. For example, it correctly points out the violence perpetrated by both Palestinians and Israeli settlers. Israel’s illegal settling of territories must be stopped if there is to be goodwill between Israelis and Palestinians. However, there are several points in which this article is misleading. I’m pleased that the author draws from his own experiences in Israel to understand the situation, but my own experiences in Israel prompt me to paint a rather different picture. The following points are areas in which this article’s goal of fairness was compromised:
1) Zionism – This article mischaracterizes Zionism, which is not a religious movement to secure the “promised land” for “God’s chosen people.” Rather, Zionism is a SECULAR, cultural movement to provide a homeland for Jews, given most of the rest of the world’s historic animosity toward them. The idea of “chosenness” is found among most peoples of the world. It is a common, ethnocentric belief, and one that is harmless, as long as it only gives its adherents a sense of ethnic pride, as opposed to a sense of chauvinistic superiority. Thus, most Jews – whether they believe their group is “chosen” or not – do not think of themselves as above others at all. Racism and bigotry are unfortunately found among Jews, as among other groups of people, but they certainly do not form the basis for the state of Israel.
2) Video clips and photos – Embedded in this article are pictures depicting fundamentalist Jews who are aggressive toward people unlike themselves. They are belligerent toward Muslims, Christians, and even less observant Jews, from all parts of the world. While these people do exist, it is misleading to point to them as examples of Jewish animosity toward non-Jews, or of a growing movement against Zionism. These extremely religious Jews (ultra-Orthodox and Chasidic) do not represent the Jewish mainstream, the spirit of modern Judaism, or the state of Israel. These people, despite their knowledge of certain traditions, are ignorant and intolerant, pure and simple. They dislike anyone and anything that conflicts with their understanding of religion or God, and so they threaten others as a reaction. These people do not represent Israel’s stance toward Christians or Muslims. They simply give Jews everywhere a bad name.
3) Public image – This article is incorrect in stating that the media generally take Israel’s side. In the current conflict between Israel and Hamas alone, the media are quick to point to the suffering of Palestinians (which is very serious and tragic), but are negligent in reporting on the damage that Hamas causes to Israel’s civilians and land. Surveys have shown that most of the world think of Israel as the oppressor, when the bulk of Israel’s military actions have been in self-defense. For most of its history, Israel has been surrounded by regimes and organizations quite hostile to it, and even opposed to its very existence. The media generally ignore wrongdoing against Israel by Islamic groups, and ignore the survival value of its military operations. Yes, of course, unprovoked or disproportionate violence must be swiftly condemned and stopped, regardless of origin. Unfortunately, most of the world’s media appear to be dead set against Israel, and committed to downplaying the severity of its neighbors’ policies and actions.
4) Symmetry of conflict – This article understates the animosity of Muslims toward Jews and Christians. Of course, as with people all over the world, there are certainly many Muslims – millions – who are decent, and who want only to live and let live. Sadly, though, Islam is more than just a religion. It’s a whole ideological package that combines religion with government, and that prompts its followers to expand its sphere of influence at the expense of other peoples, or “infidels.” What we are seeing in the Levant (the Middle East) is really just one example of the clash taking place all over the world between Muslims and non-Muslims. Many people – Muslim and non-Muslim alike – are caught in the crossfire, but that does not negate the nature of the conflict. In its history section, this article does state that organizations like Hamas refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. However, it does not incorporate this fact into its synthesis. When ruled by militant groups such as Hamas, how can there be progress toward the two-state solution, in which Israel and Palestine would live peacefully side by side? The answer is, there cannot be. There must be reciprocity in good faith. If people in the West Bank and Gaza expect good relations with their neighbors, then they must behave in a neighborly fashion. It’s as simple as that.
The Middle East conflict is indeed complex, and no one group is to blame for everything that’s gone wrong. However, if we hope to have peace, then every party involved must realize that he has to hold up his end of the bargain. There is much prosperity waiting to be found, but finding it means abandoning fantasies of genocide and world domination. People must work to educate themselves and improve their own society, rather than trying to undermine the society of others. That is the responsible thing to do, and that is what is needed in the Middle East.
There is also a fifth and final point I wish to make, and that is about truth in reporting:
5) Truth in reporting – Like other groups, Palestinians are KNOWN to disseminate propaganda – often false – to further their cause. Palestinians produce videos or attract media attention for staged massacres. Yes, that’s right – staged. While it’s true that Palestinian civilians have tragically burn hurt or killed in armed conflicts with Israel, it is very difficult to know how much of this is real and how much of it is make-believe, given the volume of false images and reports coming from Palestinian leaders. There are several documented cases of “dead” Palestinian victims who then get up and walk away once they think the cameras are off. Again, I cite this point, not to minimize the real suffering of people in the West Bank and Gaza, but to point out that Palestinians do manipulate press coverage and greatly inflate estimates of casualties, in order to further their cause of undermining the state of Israel.
Yes I agree with your fifth point, however, I want to point out that the United States is known for all of these crimes as well, and it has been well documented for years the the US is guilty as charged of these same issues.
The 4th point is valid, but I am hoping to add to this article over the course of its life, extending the length to include a fair amount of information covering these two sides. I lack information on the Muslim side because I am still waiting to get information from some of my closest circles to fill it in.
The third point, well, I have to tell you that the United States generally takes the reporting from the Israeli side as a majority. Europe is generally bias by taking the side of the Palestinians and as for the rest of the world, it is very difficult to come across a fair, balanced and objective report on the conflict.
The second point is very valid, and the point that I was trying to make was to show that even if one incident happens, look at the all together undertone of its implications. The BART shooting in Oakland caused riots, and that was just 1 isolated incident. Look at the video when the US de-segregated schools and the video showed the bullying of the black Americans. That spoke volumes and reflected an entire nation’s image. It showed an all together undertone towards blacks at that time.
And your first point, about Zionism, well As for Zionism, I agree with you. I do, however, see many people inject Zionism into their political agendas, although Zionism itself may not represent that, it’s how it is used or abused that I am trying to show. I see good evidence to show that there are Jewish politicians and military personnel that pervert Zionism and misrepresent it, which has given it these perspectives. That is after hearing both sides now and ultimately noticing many criticizers of Israel misrepresenting Zionism because of Jewish people they see perverting its meaning. But this is all a matter of misunderstanding I think and it is up to us to clear up these misconceptions about Judaism and Zionism. Many people see this is genocide even, although I agree with the recognition of casualties that were not guilty (women and children) is not just unfortunate but unacceptable, I do not agree that it is genocide. Any death that didn’t deserve it is a tragedy and a major failure to the justice system setup to punish those guilty of crimes. I know that many of the deaths in this conflict were not guilty of firing rockets, and we will never know if they supported their HAMAS, if they were just in fear like the rest of the Israelis, or if they were in support, regardless, if they didn’t fire the rocket, they didn’t commit the crime to deserve the death sentence. It is always a tragedy to see innocence lost, on both sides. Recognition for the loss of an innocent is critical in showing our ability to convince the Muslims that we too care for their suffering, even if they hate us. Little things like this, actually, are the BIG things we ignore, while our priorities are questionable sometimes, it is a great moment when we can help those who lost a loved one. If Israel undertook the compensation for the families who had a relative die from a terrorist attack or Israeli raid or whatever, I think that it would be appropriate to not just recognize the death, but compensate and help restore the relationship. Terms like “casualty of war” detach the human element and take no responsibility for the real issue, loss of an innocent. Muslims are plague with this too in the terror attacks. Their loss of recognition or respect for the innocent is staggering, but not all Muslims are this way. I believe fear is what keeps them in the brainwashing mindset and the fear put into them by Islam and their leaders, although love conquers that, it is not easily found on either side, because of fear.
I know your take on Islam, and I do not disagree with your interpretation of it being violent and many Muslims see that as well, however, there are millions of Muslims in this country who do not behave like that or believe that, and I know the statistics which show many millions more that are in the same boat, so I feel that teaching this about Islam and creating a more civilized people out of those who have destroyed the Arabs with Islamic fundamentalism and brainwashing will come from the same weapons used against them now, which are psychological and not characterized through guns, bombs and missiles. If we are to teach the confused of rational behavior and civilization, I believe it is not wise to do so by acting uncivilized ourselves, stooping to their level. This is why I admire Gandhi and Martin King because they were smart enough to recognize this, and when they changed the tactics of how they felt they could alter a civilizations psychology, there new methods worked, as they always have historically.
Although self defense is a matter of right to a nation or person, winning the minds of the violent in the peace process is through empowerment and social exchange, not more violence. Violence feeds their empowerment, not yours, as this is fundamentally misunderstood, ignored and not practiced by many in the conflict. The focus on the opposing side overshadows focusing on ourselves, and what we could do to alter their accusations about our people.
I always imagine to myself, what if there were thousands of Jewish people, and I would be one of these by the way, that gathered to feed the starving and clothe the poor Palestinians and so on and so fourth. Even knowing how the radical Islamists think, imagine if we still did it showing how we feel about recognition of their suffering, this is true martyrdom. It is truly gods work, my friend. It is not easily understood. At that point, any violence towards us would be recognized by the soul of the people, which I believe is more powerful that brainwashing, which is why it has always worked.
Yes, Many fashions of Islam are seen as violent, but it is brainwashing and I don’t think it is much more than just brainwashing, something so simple that fighting it is a matter of such importance, it must be thoroughly thought about before making our decisions on defeating it. Using violence as a means to destroy it clearly has made it worse and does not work, for throughout history, we have always known this. My ideas may sound radical, but in my perspective of life, I really believe that if these methods were just tried as well as self defense, and I am not saying we should stop defending ourselves although I do believe this latest conflict was somewhat disproportionate and tragic for its obvious signs of countless innocent victims who were not guilty of any crime to deserve the death sentence. Casualties of war are just “new speak” and “public relations terms” to describe a digestible excuse in the minds of the masses to justify the reckless killing of those not guilty of crimes. Public relations changed the “war department” to the “department of defense.” It changed “guerrilla fighter” or “terrorist” to “freedom fighter.” PR changed “gunmen” to “peace keeping forces.” George Carlin said it best:
“I don’t like words that hide the truth. I don’t like words that conceal reality. I don’t like euphemisms, or euphemistic language. And American English is loaded with euphemisms. Cause Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with reality. Americans have trouble facing the truth, so they invent the kind of a soft language to protect themselves from it, and it gets worse with every generation. For some reason, it just keeps getting worse. I’ll give you an example of that.
There’s a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It’s when a fighting person’s nervous system has been stressed to it’s absolute peak and maximum. Can’t take anymore input. The nervous system has either (click) snapped or is about to snap.
In the first world war, that condition was called ‘shell shock’. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables, ‘shell shock’. Almost sounds like the guns themselves.
That was seventy years ago. Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along and very same combat condition was called ‘battle fatigue’. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn’t seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. ‘SHELL SHOCK!’ (to) ‘Battle fatigue.’
Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called ‘operational exhaustion.’ Hey, we’re up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It’s totally sterile now. ‘Operational exhaustion.’ Sounds like something that might happen to your car.
Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it’s no surprise that the very same condition was called ‘post-traumatic stress disorder.’ Still eight syllables, but we’ve added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. ‘Post-traumatic stress disorder.’
I’ll bet you if we’d of still been calling it shell shock, some of those Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I’ll betcha. I’ll betcha.”
This just reinforces my whole point, we have become detached. Humanity has become detached from being what we were intended to be, loving and caring creatures. Getting any human to murder another one takes real effort. It takes brainwashing. People aren’t born with hatred, they’re taught it through fear. People aren’t born saying “the Jews have all the Money.” They’re taught it. It is a wrong thing to say, inaccurate and anti-Semitic, but never the less, it is taught. Hatred and violence is brought about through manipulation of the mind, using fear and trauma. Terrorism accomplishes this and feeds itself by provoking a violent response. And this leads to my next critical point…
No death of rocket attacks in Israel deserved to face the punishment of that horrific reality, as people like you and I, people of intelligence that is, know that this is a dangerous investment indirectly for many countless more murders and much animosity to be gathered to fuel this conflict. But none the less, the deaths of those who didn’t deserve it in Palestine is no more or less justified. Why call it a “causality of war?”
I believe we should try to have mass movements of Jewish people helping those in need, not in fear, which fear is by far the most effective, yet, dangerous emotion played on to get people to not love each other, which many say is our purpose. Imagine if this tactic was too undertaken, that we risk our lives to save the innocent who didn’t deserve the death that we call “casualty.” Imagine if we went out of our way to insure that suffering Palestinians received the love they need instead of us saying they are on their own, their own people need to deal with them. Think about that for a second, “there own people need to deal with them.” What people? Aren’t they people like us? See how this appears racist, although neither you nor I are racist, we show this kind of love and immediate care for our own in Israel, why not the same cautious treatment given to Palestinians? I understand how this conflict appears racist to those not familiar with the situation.
I notice that one of the many arguments I hear is one which shows our confidence and certainty that the Muslims won’t change because we already pass judgment on these people to our recognizing their brainwashing. You’ll hear people say, “oh they won’t see our love for what it is if we try to help them. They are crazy, we’d be wasting our time.”
Yet, we haven’t tried it, and I mean really tried it. We don’t finance this kind of warfare with billions of dollars? We could certainly create the resources and capabilities to launch such an undertaking, yet we never have and, historically, if you look at when it has been attempted, you can not find ONE incidence in which it didn’t prevail and achieve peace. Not ONE.
Why then are we so certain? If it historically has worked, and we haven’t tried it, and the methods we use clearly fuel the conflict to a larger extent, than why are we so confused on the issue? Why are so many people under the spell of thinking “It’s a deep rooted issue.” I hear that all the time. “It’s deep rooted.”
So? None the less, the more or less you attached you are doesn’t change the concepts we understand as a people. They do not change the concepts we understand are the solution. It is this old way of thinking, if I get hit, I hit back. It is childish, irrational, illogical and has fundamentally been the problem that continues this fight. Like two children fighting and the world says “which side are you on?”
But when you analyze what many say, you’ll hear, “for every 1 of us, we kill 100 of them.” Well this clearly is seen. And you know what, I am still amazed at when I see people that say “I just don’t understand why the conflict is there.” It isn’t because it is deep rooted. It is because there are people who don’t understand how to deal with their problems in a civilized manner and who, yes, appear racist for their disproportionate treatment towards their own people, versus the treatment they give others.
Clearly there are cases of unfair advantage given to Israelis over Palestinians, whether isolated or not, when one looks at the IDF and how they respond to stone throwing, name calling, intimidation or whatever.
We saw that crap here with the civil rights. Intimidating of blacks when they were entering schools when it was forced de-segregation. The difference here is, that intimidation is based on accusing the person they oppress (both sides do this) with being like the ones conducting violence. Accusing any one person, for crimes that someone else has committed, whether or not they are Jewish or Muslim. Just because someone is Jewish or Muslim, doesn’t mean they believe the radical ideology we accuse them of, or they are in support of the violence, or they have committed any of these atrocities.
Clearly, there exists symmetry between our own historical civil rights experience in the US and the incidents that I showed in the article depicting how some Jews act towards Muslims, and how we all know from the videos well shared on the network news that some Muslims act towards Jews, what difference is there? I see that they are repeating the same mistake of treating an entire people guilty, for what the actions of some are responsible for, hence, the word racism appropriately describes, unfortunately, much of the situation.